Hi Sven and people, Here are my thoughts, which I'll pose in response to others' comments.
You also can't convert a person away from their beliefs against their will, no matter how bad it might be for them. You disrespect her person by trying to change her in to someone she is not.
I agree you can't change someone else, but I don't see how helping someone to become aware of the truth is doing that. The Watchtower Society does not let anyone be who they are. There's an expression: "We believe what we want to believe." If this girl really values her religion above Sven, and above knowing the truth, she'll believe in it whatever information she looks at.
I suggest rather that you make an ultimatum of your own. Tell her that if she really wants to be with you, your relationship has to progress. Tell her you want no more phone calls unless she is willing to get engaged and follow you. You might share a few concerns with the society and it's rules and perhaps she will struggle out on her own. But it has to be her struggle. You might have to wait a while. But if this love is genuine, isn't it worth waiting for?
Sounds similar to my "quick" suggestion. Might work, might not. I believe the slower method of studying with her would be more likely to enable her to open up her eyes. As for waiting a while, yes, undoubtedly.
That's why I wrote what I did because many times emotion and feelings can cloud judgement and I believe that once you come down a little bit from that emotion, reality sets in. I also know that the only way someone truly makes life long decisions is if the path is their own. People need to feel ownership over their decisions. The JW organization hits people at so many levels pyschological, familial, fear/guilt, body of friends that there are even people that decided to walk away on their own, but are emotional cripples unable to form meaningful relationships with others and have severe intimacy problems. The whole breaking away needs time to stick, the perso needs to unlearn behavior, thinking, etc and that is before jumping into a relationship or else it will seep into it. Now, that is my thoughts on it, how that stands up to individual people can vary, of course. And maybe things will work differently for you, but know what you are up against and be prepared of where it could go. If someone asked my advice such as yours, I would tell them to run, and run fast and don't look back.
Feeling that the decision is the person's own is very important, especially with something like this situation. That's why it probably cannot be a quick process. There's no doubt that there would be a certain amount of pain and adjustment involved on the part of the girl, but adjustments can be made. I was surprised at how natural things which I previously believed were wrong felt when I did them for the first time.
...I was such an idiot I know.
Sven, it's certainly true that kind of stuff may not be helpful to her and her situation, but it's happened now so that's that. If she was in your hotel room flirting with you then I guess it was bound to happen. To be honest, I'm surprised she was anywhere near your room due to rules from the Society.
Of course, this will be very hard for her to ignore before her own mind and probably she will argue about that ( the two egos of her I mean).
Yes. And she doesn't need feelings of guilt right now. As I said, what's done is done, but if she's to change her life for the long term I would say she needs to do it much more slowly. Not only that, but if she gets herself into trouble with her religion it would put her through a lot. Do not rush things. I suggest you don't allow yourselves to be alone together. Ironically, this is a rule which the religion has. You may need to make the same one to protect her from herself right now.
Strange is that she didnt take my apology and said there is nothin to be ashamed of or nothin to feel guilty for....... what makes me even more confused. Things are always going other ways than you expect....
From what you've said, she may simply be trying to keep you from feeling bad. She may feel guilty herself.
but what do you mean by : the Elders might oppose your match.
If the two of you were in a relationship when either one or both of you was a JW, the religious leaders (the elders) would have some amount of psychological control. This is just one reason why everybody here has told you not to become one or to be in a relationship with a person who is still one.
You need to decide if you can live with yourself if this girl jumps off a bridge one day because you are being so selfish. Grow the f*ck up and leave her alone.
This is one of life's difficult situations. It's not Sven's fault. It's not her fault. It is what it is. People meet each other and things happen.
You say you wants her to find her own answers, but with you leading the way...how are you any different from them?
Sven doesn't claim divine approval, twist the word of God (itself a human work) to control people and limit the information around 6/7 million people access or exert a disgusting amount of control over the way people live. He is someone who wants to be with the one he loves, and believes that one feels likewise.
Then ask yourself what your motive is, getting her out or being with her. Honor is doing the right thing when it is the most difficult, you do not know at this point if you are even supposed to be together, and if you do get her out, odds are incredibly in the favor of her being someone entirely different that you would not want to be with and she would not want to be with you.
If the two of them don't end up together, the net result would simply be that someone has freed themselves of a cult by their own choice. A bad thing?
You have no idea what you are messing with, this is a person's life.
It would be the girl's choice to take this as far as she wants. Her life has already been entirely messed with by the Watchtower Society. I'm not saying it would be easy for her (see my previous comments), but I don't see how it's wrong to rationally discuss issues of religion with a fully grown adult who is responsible for her own beliefs. If she loves the guy and wants to be with him, why shouldn't she be given a chance to remove the barriers if she so wishes? It's her life, and she'll do what she chooses. So Sven, this is obviously a very important stage for the poor girl. Hopefully she won't confess to an elder and then decide to cut you out. If she doesn't, then I suggest you make sure it doesn't happen again and proceed with the logical approach of objectively studying the bible. If she is to change her life (which she must do before anything can really work for the two of you) she will need time.
